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We came up with some more stats based on winnings, etc - We have the show notes we used uploaded.
http://justin.gctvn.com/shownotes/basementcritic_ep1.html
http://justin.gctvn.com/shownotes/basementcritic_ep1.html
Now i'll say this much, i listened to your podcast live.....and i agreed with some of what you sad, but on the other hand you had some misinformed statements(such as VALVE recently stating that noone has ever had to play them anything to hold any tournaments;ever.)
Originally posted by
GCTVN-JustinWell, as we said in our show (You know the one that brang this topic up?) the community will not support the new leagues regardless of good intentions or not. A majority of gamers laugh at the leader in upcoming leagues (BOE), and reject other tournament/league sites like the XPL, ETLGames and others.
What community are you speaking too? Gotfrags? most people who i know who ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT COMPETITION are HAPPY that new leagues are coming up and growing. Look at BoE's tournament, upwards of 700 teams signed up.......the brackets are RIDICULOUS.
Now i'll say this much, i listened to your podcast live.....and i agreed with some of what you sad, but on the other hand you had some misinformed statements(such as VALVE recently stating that noone has ever had to play them anything to hold any tournaments;ever.)
Originally posted by
GCTVN-Justin
For future leagues to come into play and offer these same prizes that CEVO and ESEA do need to be heavily funded by an outside source. ESEA, one example we gave, is short roughly -$8,685 for their Counter-Strike 1.6 league. (5players * teams - prizemoney, which will be off because that's based on 5 players per team, some have more, etc)
Now that's 1,447 premium subscribers to make that difference if no other funding was taken from sponsors.
All leagues, including NFL, NBA and others are heavily sponsored by outside sources. It's the nature of the beast, it is not new. At all.
[quote]New leagues also NEED the professional support, and frankly, why would a professional team want to play in a free to play league? Please remember, they all dropped out of CAL - and if you try to play the CGS game - remember, none of them rejoined after. Every team that starts up wants to be the next big team, and they will follow in the footsteps of the professionals.
This is what happened to CAL. coL, the best team in the league, dropped it because they focused on WEG, and then all the other teams followed. They "followed the money" to CEVO around the same time, but remember for a while they played BOTH.
[quote]
I, probably just like you, want to see more leagues emerge and have a variety of options on where to play, but how can new leagues compete with ESEA/CEVO/ESL?
How could ESL compete with inferno online?How could WCG compete with ESWC? How could CEVO compete with CAL? If it's ran good enough, they will take over the other ones.
Originally posted by
GCTVN-JustinWell, as we said in our show (You know the one that brang this topic up?) the community will not support the new leagues regardless of good intentions or not. A majority of gamers laugh at the leader in upcoming leagues (BOE), and reject other tournament/league sites like the XPL, ETLGames and others. What community are you speaking too? Gotfrags? most people who i know who ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT COMPETITION are HAPPY that new leagues are coming up and growing. Look at BoE's tournament, upwards of 700 teams signed up.......the brackets are RIDICULOUS.
Now i'll say this much, i listened to your podcast live.....and i agreed with some of what you sad, but on the other hand you had some misinformed statements(such as VALVE recently stating that noone has ever had to play them anything to hold any tournaments;ever.)
Originally posted by
GCTVN-JustinFor future leagues to come into play and offer these same prizes that CEVO and ESEA do need to be heavily funded by an outside source. ESEA, one example we gave, is short roughly -$8,685 for their Counter-Strike 1.6 league. (5players * teams - prizemoney, which will be off because that's based on 5 players per team, some have more, etc)
Now that's 1,447 premium subscribers to make that difference if no other funding was taken from sponsors.
All leagues, including NFL, NBA and others are heavily sponsored by outside sources. It's the nature of the beast, it is not new. At all.
[quote]New leagues also NEED the professional support, and frankly, why would a professional team want to play in a free to play league? Please remember, they all dropped out of CAL - and if you try to play the CGS game - remember, none of them rejoined after. Every team that starts up wants to be the next big team, and they will follow in the footsteps of the professionals.
This is what happened to CAL. coL, the best team in the league, dropped it because they focused on WEG, and then all the other teams followed. They "followed the money" to CEVO around the same time, but remember for a while they played BOTH.
[quote]
I, probably just like you, want to see more leagues emerge and have a variety of options on where to play, but how can new leagues compete with ESEA/CEVO/ESL?
How could ESL compete with inferno online?How could WCG compete with ESWC? How could CEVO compete with CAL? If it's ran good enough, they will take over the other ones.
They are heavily sponsored because of the spectators and revenue involved. Sponsoring a new gaming league with $10,000 in startup cash (lets make an easy number) - WILL the league be able to return that companies investment? Probably not.
CGS chose Counter-Strike source because they were not a typical league. Remember they HAD to market to the television audience to make the league successful. Why would you show 1.6 over a "prettier" game like source?
CGS took on the role of marketing towards general gamers. They showed games on TV that many people have never seen play "professionally" if they even knew professional gaming even existed. Playing games on ESPN wont work, the same reason why you probably wont watch golf, but you would play a round or two.
Leagues definitely compete, but remember ESL had the Euro scene before it came to the US (foundation built), ESEA had the pug system and was bringing in a cash flow prior, and during, the league (foundation built), and CAL introduced the original 8 week league format that all leagues use today (foundation built BEFORE money was even at play) - CEVO came in at the same time BOE did, when leagues were sparce (remember that UGS/UGL I forget what the name is, and XPL both croaked leaving us with CAL/OGL)
BOE has a standing shot, but I think the majority of the community is against it. A lot of things are out of there control, but just last night they are having the entire round 2 replayed because of server issues. Slowly people are pealing off of the league - well, tournaments for now.
CGS chose Counter-Strike source because they were not a typical league. Remember they HAD to market to the television audience to make the league successful. Why would you show 1.6 over a "prettier" game like source?
CGS took on the role of marketing towards general gamers. They showed games on TV that many people have never seen play "professionally" if they even knew professional gaming even existed. Playing games on ESPN wont work, the same reason why you probably wont watch golf, but you would play a round or two.
Leagues definitely compete, but remember ESL had the Euro scene before it came to the US (foundation built), ESEA had the pug system and was bringing in a cash flow prior, and during, the league (foundation built), and CAL introduced the original 8 week league format that all leagues use today (foundation built BEFORE money was even at play) - CEVO came in at the same time BOE did, when leagues were sparce (remember that UGS/UGL I forget what the name is, and XPL both croaked leaving us with CAL/OGL)
BOE has a standing shot, but I think the majority of the community is against it. A lot of things are out of there control, but just last night they are having the entire round 2 replayed because of server issues. Slowly people are pealing off of the league - well, tournaments for now.
Originally posted by
GCTVN-JustinLeagues definitely compete, but remember ESL had the Euro scene before it came to the US (foundation built), ESEA had the pug system and was bringing in a cash flow prior, and during, the league (foundation built), and CAL introduced the original 8 week league format that all leagues use today (foundation built BEFORE money was even at play) - CEVO came in at the same time BOE did, when leagues were sparce (remember that UGS/UGL I forget what the name is, and XPL both croaked leaving us with CAL/OGL)
I think you missed my point. ESL was not the first league in europe/sweden; inferno online league was, to my knowledge, founded before ESL and competed directly with ESL for a while, but recently been taken over by ESL. So these "leagues" have had competitors, and have to FIGHT to survive. That's what i was getting at.
GCTVN-JustinLeagues definitely compete, but remember ESL had the Euro scene before it came to the US (foundation built), ESEA had the pug system and was bringing in a cash flow prior, and during, the league (foundation built), and CAL introduced the original 8 week league format that all leagues use today (foundation built BEFORE money was even at play) - CEVO came in at the same time BOE did, when leagues were sparce (remember that UGS/UGL I forget what the name is, and XPL both croaked leaving us with CAL/OGL)I think you missed my point. ESL was not the first league in europe/sweden; inferno online league was, to my knowledge, founded before ESL and competed directly with ESL for a while, but recently been taken over by ESL. So these "leagues" have had competitors, and have to FIGHT to survive. That's what i was getting at.
Correct, but each league had something new to bring to the table. CAL brang the "season" instead of the challenge ladders we have seen previously. CEVO brang the pay to play, ESEA brang all of the perks mentioned in the show notes (server, hltv, stats, etc for every match) along with a higher prize pot.
ESL is a challenge ladder, one team challenges another. The only league as far as I know in North America that does that is OGL. ("bigger" league) - Did ESL bring back the leisure of a challenge ladder to the Euro players?
My point is BOE has nothing new to bring to the table. They will have mediocre cash handouts, mediocre perks (anticheat), and so far have proven themselves as a mediocre league at best.
While I understand BOE is new, so new it hasn't had a league begin yet - just tournaments for placement and entry - it has had its fair share of hiccups. With server problems, website problems, and just this week of Round 2 they are still in the process of having all the teams replay their matches.
I understand 100% that a majority of this is out of there control, shit happens, and I still support them but they need a little short of a miracle to win back the community that will either make or break this league.
I want BOE to succeed, I really do, but I personally don't see it happening past the first season. (remember FGL, or even XPL?) You can have the best in the world, but if the players/media don't support it, its game over.
ESL is a challenge ladder, one team challenges another. The only league as far as I know in North America that does that is OGL. ("bigger" league) - Did ESL bring back the leisure of a challenge ladder to the Euro players?
My point is BOE has nothing new to bring to the table. They will have mediocre cash handouts, mediocre perks (anticheat), and so far have proven themselves as a mediocre league at best.
While I understand BOE is new, so new it hasn't had a league begin yet - just tournaments for placement and entry - it has had its fair share of hiccups. With server problems, website problems, and just this week of Round 2 they are still in the process of having all the teams replay their matches.
I understand 100% that a majority of this is out of there control, shit happens, and I still support them but they need a little short of a miracle to win back the community that will either make or break this league.
I want BOE to succeed, I really do, but I personally don't see it happening past the first season. (remember FGL, or even XPL?) You can have the best in the world, but if the players/media don't support it, its game over.


An example we brang up was CAL - People day after day said CAL needs to bring money and/or prizes for the winners of each division, leading us to recognize that a lot of the dedicated/hardcore gamers we see playing counter-strike prefer the pay2play league style. (We understand free to play is necessary, obviously not everyone wants to put forth money to play the game)
For future leagues to come into play and offer these same prizes that CEVO and ESEA do need to be heavily funded by an outside source. ESEA, one example we gave, is short roughly -$8,685 for their Counter-Strike 1.6 league. (5players * teams - prizemoney, which will be off because that's based on 5 players per team, some have more, etc)
Now that's 1,447 premium subscribers to make that difference if no other funding was taken from sponsors.
New leagues also NEED the professional support, and frankly, why would a professional team want to play in a free to play league? Please remember, they all dropped out of CAL - and if you try to play the CGS game - remember, none of them rejoined after. Every team that starts up wants to be the next big team, and they will follow in the footsteps of the professionals.
I, probably just like you, want to see more leagues emerge and have a variety of options on where to play, but how can new leagues compete with ESEA/CEVO/ESL?